Thomas McGoran (2 of 2)

Disclaimer: This interview was conducted in 1995 and concerns memories of 1930s life; as such there may be opinions expressed or words used that do not meet today's norms and expectations.

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* Transcript ID: TM-92-009AT002

* CCINTB Transcript ID: 92-9-32a-aw

* Tapes: TM-92-009OT003, TM-92-009OT004

* CCINTB Tapes ID: T95-13, T95-14

* Length: 01:12:58

* Glasgow, 22 February 1995: Valentina Bold interviews Thomas McGoran

* Transcribed by Valentina Bold/Standardised by Annie Nissen

* TM = Thomas McGoran / VB = Valentina Bold

* Notes: Second of two interviews with Thomas McGoran; the start of this interview was recorded on Side B of the tape used in previous interview (TM-92-009OT03); Sound Quality: Good; this interview was originally transcribed in a phonetic manner; the original phonetic version can be accessed through our physical collection - please contact Lancaster University Library for details.

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[Tape One]

[Part-way through Side B]

[VB showing book; voice in background]

TM: Now this is an old book this, isn't it? This must date back to the thirties.

VB: Yeah, I think it's about 1936, something like that.

TM: Ernst Lubitsch. [reading from book]

VB: Some of the stars you've been talking about are--

TM: Jeanette MacDonald and Maurice Chevalier, [leafing through] Kay Francis, Gary Cooper, aye, when he was a young man, Herbert Marshall, Ginger Rogers, Anna Sten. The glamour girls of the thirties, eh?

VB: Aye. 'Cause I was interested when you were talking about how you liked Deanna Durbin. What was it about her that, that appealed to you?

TM: I don't know. It was just her looks, you know, she was a right good-looking girl, eh, but she could also sing, you know? She could bring tears to your eyes with her singing.

VB: Yeah.

TM: She was a marvellous singer.

VB: Yeah.

TM: [leafing through] All Quiet on the Western Front, I remember going to see that. That was a great picture, it was about the horrors of war, you know? It was an anti-war film but, eh, it was about a young German soldier that gets caught up in the war, you know, he doesn't want to go but he's forced into it, and it's about his life at the front, eh, and he finished up getting killed, you know? And, I always remember, it was 1918, it was getting near to the end of the war, and he was in the trenches and it was the springtime, flowers are starting to come up, you know, and he was patrolling up and down the trenches and a 00:02:00butterfly landed just in front of him, and he's standing looking at it and he put out his hand to touch it [mimics action], and just as that-- a sniper, pang, shoots him, you know, and that's how the film finished up.TM: Eh, they did try to make it another picture, now what was the name of it now. It was John Gavin who was in it and it followed something, sort of the same theme, A Time to Love and a Time to Die, I think that was the name of it, and it was about German soldiers, this time they were in Russia, and this, eh, it was virtually the same story but modernised, about modern times, you know, and instead of him reaching for a butterfly it was a letter from his girlfriend.VB: Really?

TM: He was sitting in the snows, outside Stalingrad, you know? And he took out this letter and he read it, and the wind came and it blew it away from him, and he stretched out to get it [mimics action] and it landed in a wee stream and as 00:03:00he stretched out a sniper shot him.

VB: Mhm.

TM: And the letter flowed away down the river and that was the last scene in the film, you know, with his hand stretched out. But, it was virtually a remake of All Quiet on the Western Front but it didn't quite have the same impact--

VB: Right.

TM: As All Quiet on the Western Front.

VB: Isn't that actually the-- I'm just going to check this thing, as I'm not convinced-- erm, was that the one with, he's quite a young actor in it?

TM: Yeah, aye, that's right, aye.

VB: What was his name?

TM: Lew Ayres.

VB: Yes.

TM: Aye, Lew Ayres, that was him.

VB: That's a wonderful movie, that, eh, 'cause I remember there was that eh, an older soldier in it who...

TM: Aye.

VB: Wisens him up to what's going on.

TM: Aye! [laughs] That's right. Aye, he was surrounded with old fellas, you know.

VB: Yeah.

TM: One of the scenes in it, he went into the trenches, you know, and the rats all over the place, there was rats nibbling their bread, you know, and you seen this fella taking a swipe at the rat, you know. And he lifted the lump of bread 00:04:00that the rat'd been eating and he just pulled a bit off it and threw it away and started eating it!

VB: Aw!

TM: [laughs] But thas was the sorta conditions that they lived in.

VB: Yeah.

TM: The Lives of a Bengal Lancer, that was another great movie. I've-- that's Gary Cooper, Gary Cooper, Richard Cromwell, and Franchot Tone I think was the other one, there were three of them. [pause 2 seconds]

VB: There've been some quite good thirties films on the TV recently, haven't there. There was, erm, I'm taping them, they're the ones that are on at two in the morning! [laughs]

TM: Aye, well you see, this is what I, I don"t pay much attention to this thing at all [indicates television]. When I'm in on my own it's never on, and sometimes I miss out on it. But I [with emphasis] feel if I'm sitting watching that [Valerie?], I'm missing doing a lot of things.

VB: Yeah.

TM: I mean I [with emphasis] like to be on the move and do things, and I can't sit watching that and do things at the same time!

VB: Yeah.

TM: But there was a film on last week and I was kicking myself for forgetting about it. It was on during the night and I intended to put a tape in and tape 00:05:00it. And it was filmed in colour, what they said was two-tone colour, and I wanted to get it, and I forgot all about the flaming thing. I can't mind [remember] what it was.

VB: Actually, I think I did tape that. Was that Whoopee?

TM: It may have been, aye. It may have been.

VB: With Eddie Cantor.

TM: Eddie Cantor. Aye.

VB: Yeah.

TM: One of the early colour films.

VB: I've a feeling I might have taped that, but I've not had a look at it yet.

TM: Good. [looking at photographs] Charlie Chaplin, never cared for him much, I preferred Laurel and Hardy. I just needed to see Laurel and Hardy and I started laughing. Things To Come, I remember that [leafing through]. Jack Buchanan, I remember him.

VB: You were saying that you liked the sort of science fiction ones?

TM: Aw, I loved the science fiction, aye. Richard Dix, he made a lot of western films, him. There's a lot of names here I don't recognise, but possibly they're 00:06:00maybe just too old for me. Mickey Mouse, cartoons.

VB: Did you like musicals? You were mentioning--

TM: [increase in volume] Yeah, yeh, I quite liked the musicals. Eh I liked every type of film. The only type I didn't like was love pictures, you know, kissing and slabbering all over each other. But of course when you're young, you know, you don't approve of that sort of thing.

VB: Yeah.

TM: And when that was on we made our own entertainment. We used to run up and down the passages, you know? And annoy the chucker outs! Hide under the seats, eh, do, do all sorts of things, eh play cowboys until something Interesting come on and then you sat down and watched it. [volume increase] But I think the cinema staff expected that from the young kids, you know? They knew that there were certain films you weren't going to be interested in. But as long as you 00:07:00didn't do any damage that was the main thing, you know, running up and down the corridors, you know, and fighting with your mates, you know, and rolling about, that was OK, as long as you didn't start wrecking the place, they didn't mind too much. And then they would chase you, you know, and you would hide under the seats, crawl under the seats. [laughs]

VB: Was that the same in all the cinemas, or...?

TM: Well, I'm talking about the cinemas that was local.

VB: Right.

TM: I mean, we never went to the town cinemas. We didn't have the money for a start, you know? My parents wouldn't have let us go. It was OK to go to the local pictures like the Scotia in Millerston Street, you got into there for a penny on a Saturday afternoon. Or the Orient, down in the Gallowgate, you got in there for threepence. That was expensive, but it was well worth the money down there, 'cause you went into the Orient, you were in there for at least three hours, possibly more, and what you got for your money was two big pictures, a newsreel, probably a cartoon, maybe an interest film, a short on travel, or a 00:08:00comedy, and a serial, and maybe a March of Time thrown in. That was a political film, a monthly magazine.

VB: Can you tell me a bit more about that, 'cause you mentioned it before?

TM: Aye, right, well that March of Time, it was a film that was produced by American magazines, 'Time' and 'Life'. They combined together and they produced this film. It ran for maybe about twenty minutes, it was just one, one double reeler, and it always concentrated on a political topic of the times. Now I remember, quite clearly, when Japan invaded China. I think it was about 1938 or something. And they made a March of Time all about that Japanese invasion. It explained to you why the Japanese had invaded China. Now it told you what the 00:09:00reasons were, the Japanese wanted Westerners out of the Orient altogether. They wanted Japan to be the, the, the power of the East. And they knew they would never get power until they had driven the British and Americans away from the Pacific. And this was their way of starting, they, they had threated America, eh, politically, that if they didn't clear out they'd pay for it one day. They'd hoped to get them out without fighting, you know? But the Americans wouldn't hear tell of it, and of course they'd hoped to get the British out as well. Now the British Empire In those days was worldwide, and the Japanese soon realised that the only way to get them out was by force. So they started to build an empire of their own and they had to get rid of China first, and they went to war with China. But China was ill-prepared for war and the Japanese was able to go 00:10:00in at will with tanks and planes, which the Chinese didn't have. They'd only old muskets and old rifles and this was how their defence.... Their biggest defence was numbers, you know, numerical superiority over the Japanese, but when it came to numbers over modern weapons, modern weapons won hands down. So this was how the Japanese.

[End of Side B]

[End of Tape One]

[Start of Tape Two]

[Start of Side A]

TM: The newspapers was full of this sort of thing.

VB: Yeah.

TM: But it was one thing to read about it and another thing to sit down in a cinema and watch it unfold in front of your eyes.

VB: Yeah.

TM: That was what I liked about it. That you could see what the newspapers were telling you. They jumped about from one thing to another, you know, one month they'd be concentrating on the Pacific, you know, in China and that, eh, the Japan-China war. The next month it might be some internal problems in America they would deal with. Unemployment or something like that. They would make a big story on this. And then the following year they would be in Europe telling you 00:11:00about something. You know? It was, it was really good and I liked it. And there was always that drumming voice at the start, you know? There was a roll of drums and you heard the man saying, "The March of Time" and then the big stirring music, you know? And then they went through the gamble, or the film, or the story they were telling, and then it would always finish up with the voice saying, [deep inflection] "Time marches on," you know, and that's when it finished.

VB: Right.

TM: But it was real good, I liked it. There was such a number of shorts in those times. Eh you had Comedy shorts, you had Musical shorts, you had Travel shorts. And a lot of the Travel shorts were in colour. I think MGM produced a, a series of shorts, eh, what was it called now? It was-- something about the globe. You know it always started with the world turning, you know? And then it picked a spot in the world, and this was the spot you were going to visit, you know. For 00:12:00the next ten minutes or so. It might be a Pacific Island, you know. Or, it might be a place in Russia, or a place in France, you know. And it was showing you all, just like the travel guides that you see nowadays. And it always ended up with this guy saying, "And so we say farewell to the beautiful island of whatever it was!" [laughs] You know? Or, and then the next time, "And so we say farewell to Lake Ontario" or something like this! [laughs] Eh, it always came to that part, "And so we say farewell", you know? Aye, that was good. And the there was all the comedies! Joe McDoakes Behind the Eight Ball. Laurel and Hardy. And sometimes they had Musical eh shorts, but they put a, there was a singer on the screen and they put the words up, and they had a wee ball bouncing from word to word. Something like modern karaoke!

VB: Right.

TM: But all the audience used to, they joined in and sing it, popular songs, and this ball bounced along on the words you were supposed to be singing, and then the light changed and the ball was bouncing again. The fella would be leading 00:13:00the community singing. In fact, one of the best shorts I ever saw, I'll never forget it, it was a short called Minstrel Days, and it only lasted for about ten minutes. And it started off with explaining how the minstrel shows began. How people blacked their faces, you know, and acted like darkies, you know. They left themselves big white lips, you know, and they wore white gloves, and they showed you all the Al Jolson stuff. And then halfway through the film, they spent the first half of it telling you how it all began, and showed you many of the famous minstrel singers. Most of them were American of course, but then, the fella that's commentating, says, "And now, for the benefit of those people who have never seen a Minstrel Show, we're going to devote the rest of the time to letting you see it." And you know, oh, it was the best ten minutes of music and singing I ever saw. There was a minstrel band up on the stage, you know? And 00:14:00everybody dressed in black. And there was this singing, you know, and it was really foot tapping stuff! And then occasionally the guy got up and done a solo, you know, or a couple of girls got up and did it, a, a song, and a couple of fellas got up and did a dance! You know. All in black, you know. I suppose you would say it's politically incorrect now. This is what would happen. But that was one of the best shorts I ever saw in my whole life. It was a marvellous thing. Wait till I show you something [TM goes away 6 seconds] This is a list of films that I can remember from the thirties [both voices quieter in distance].

VB: Great.

TM: The ones that, that stayed in my memory. And you'd possibly find, see, there's one in there, The Lives of a Bengal Lancer.

VB: Great.

TM: There, it's there.

VB: That's really interesting, to see actually.

TM: That was a, a lot of the pictures that I remember.

VB: Right.

TM: Gunga Din, The Real Glory, Gary Cooper, The Lives of a Bengal Lancer, Gary Cooper, Beau Geste, that was Gary Cooper. San Francisco, Clark Gable, Spencer Tracy, Jeanette MacDonald, San Francisco, the earthquake of 1912 [referring to 1906]. The Adventures of Tom Sawyer, that was a colour film, that was one of the early colour movies. Lost Horizon, Ronald Colman and Jane Wyatt. That was Frank Capra's production. Maybe I should put that thing in here while I'm telling you about this.

VB: Yes, that's great.

TM: [coughs; rustling 10 seconds] the Lost Horizon, that was Frank Capra's production, that was about people who was escaping trouble in China, and they flew in a plane, and the plane crash landed in the mountain areas of Nepal in Tibet, and they came across Utopia, you know? The land that nobody'd ever seen. 00:16:00And that, that was a great movie as well. The Green Hell, that was George Sanders, eh [pause 3 seconds] what's that fella's name, Douglas Fairbanks Junior, that was about the Amazon, that was about head-hunters in the Amazon, the guys with wee [makes spitting noise] spit a poisoned dart at you, you know, and you're a goner! That was a great movie as well. S.O.S. Clipper Island, that was a right adventure thing, that, so was that, The Sun Never Sets, Basil Rathbone. Boys Town, Spencer Tracy and Mickey Rooney. That was about a priest in America, a Catholic Priest, who built a town for wayward boys, you know? He took kids off the street and brought them in and gave them a life. That was a smashing movie that. Dead End, that was about the boys in New York, that run about the streets, you know, and came to no good, you know. They get mixed up, you know, with drugs, you know, and drink and gangsters and that sort of thing. 00:17:00That was Joel McCrea that was in that. Union Pacific, that was also Joel McCrea. That was a western. Cecil B. DeMille. The Adventures of Robin Hood. That was on just, not that long ago.

VB: Errol Flynn!

TM: Errol Flynn, oh that was great that. But whatever other Robin Hood movies they make, they could never come up with one that was like that. One Hundred Men and A Girl, Three Smart Girls, Three Smart Girls Grow Up, Spring Parade, First Love, all Deanna Durbin movies, you know. Aw, I went and saw some of these two and three times over [coughs] just because she was in it. Mutiny on the Bounty, the original, Clark Gable, Charles Laughton. That was a great movie. Jesse James, Tyrone Power, Henry Fonda, the James brothers. That was a western. Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, James Stewart, that was a small town, what was he? The American equivalent to our MPs, you know? He went to Washington and fought the world sort of thing, you know. And come back with the goods. The Plainsman, Gary 00:18:00Cooper, that was a western. Northwest Passage, that was Spencer Tracy and that was about the Rogers' Rangers that first crossed Northwest Canada, you know, through Indian country. That was also in colour [coughs] excuse me. China Seas, that was a sea drama. Clark Gable and Wallace Beery. Reap the Wild Wind, that was another Cecil B. DeMille, oh that had a great cast, that. It was Ray Milland, John Wayne, Susan Hayward, Paulette Goddard and Gary Cooper. Oh, everybody was in that movie. North West Mounted Police, Robert Preston, Preston Foster, Susan Hayward, Paulette Goddard again, that was a Cecil B. DeMille.

VB: Mhm.

TM: Stagecoach, that was on last Saturday, oh that, that's-- [VB laughs] Oh, I thoroughly enjoyed that! All Quiet on the Western Front, that's the rest of the war film we were talking about, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, that was, eh, Charles Laughton and Maureen O'Hara. The Dawn Patrol, Errol Flynn and David 00:19:00Niven. Charge of the Light Brigade, Errol Flynn. The Informer, Victor McLaglen, that was about the IRA. That, that was a good movie. He, he informed and he was a, a right hard man, you know, in Ireland, he needed money. He saw a poster on the wall about, eh, how the, America was taking Irish immigrants, you know, for a small amount of cash. And he had to raise this cash, so he informed the police that one of his mates, who was a member of the IRA, and caused him to be killed, and of course he became an outcast then, you know. He never got to America, they killed him in the end. The East Side of Heaven, Bing Crosby. The Four Feathers, that was a British film, that was in colour. So was The Drum, and The Thief of Baghdad, they all came out round about the same time. Destry Rides Again, James Stewart and Marlene Dietrich [laughs] that, that was a--

VB: I've seen that one. It's a great one.

TM: That was a great comic western, that. So it was, it was marvellous.

VB: [laughs] He carves these ornamental, wee [inaudible]

TM: That, that's right, aye, aye. "I knew a man!" He's always saying, "I knew a man" He, he didn't carry a gun, you know? Until he needed it. But he always started a story, "I once knew a fella" you know! [both laugh]

TM: Aloma of the South Seas, that was Dorothy Lamour's first appearance on the screen, I think.

VB: Ah!

TM: She was a, what do they call them, a hula hula girl in Hawaii, you know, and that was in colour as well. Treasure Island, that was Wallace Beery, eh, Gone with the Wind, which you'll remember, Gone with the Wind. The Rains Came, that was Tyrone Power, George Brent, that was about India. There was a big eh flood sequence in that, you know. The rains came so hard that they burst a big dam. You know, the dam gave way and flooded the whole area. And The Sea Hawk and Captain Blood, that was two Errol Flynn movies. They were great.

VB: I mean, Errol Flynn seems to crop up a lot in that list!

TM: Ah, I liked Errol Flynn, aye. I liked Errol Flynn and John Wayne. I liked men's men, you know. I liked fellas that could walk in, you know, and say, [inflected with a swagger] "I'm the boss here, you know, I could be the killer." This was a lot of series, eh serials I remembered.

VB: Aah.

TM: There's 'Ace Drummond', 'Tim Tyler's Luck', 'Secret Agent X-9', 'Flash Gordon' made three serials, the first one was just simply called Flash Gordon, and then came Flash Gordon's Trip to Mars, and then the last one was Flash Gordon Conquers the Universe, and then there was Bring 'Em Back Alive, that was Frank Buck, that was a jungle hunter. He went into the jungle and brought animals back, and sold them to zoos. Jungle Jim, that was a jungle one, but that was a fictitious one, you know? There was no reality in that. And then there was Wild West Days, Flaming Frontiers, and Oregon Trail, they were all Westerns. Buck Rogers in the 25th Century, there's a series on the television just now, 00:22:00about Buck Rogers on a Monday night, but it's, it's a way out of what the original one was.

VB: Right. Who was in that?

TM: Eh, it was, eh, Larry Buster Crabbe that was in that, the same man that played Flash Gordon. [pause 2 seconds] Shorts, short subjects. Crime Does Not Pay, now that was a two reeler, but produced by MGM in the 1930s. And it was always ended up when the criminal got caught, or getting killed or something of the sort. The, the name of the series was Crime Does Not Pay, and it always opened with a police car going through the streets and the screen was filled with a police badge and then a hand come up with a gun. And the gun was pointing straight at the audience, you see? And it fired five times, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang. And then the words come up, "Crime Does Not Pay" and then the wee story started. And that was, that was quite a common thing as well that, that 00:23:00come out maybe once every couple of months, and usually it was a well-known actor that appeared in it, you know? They didn't tell you this in, the, in the credits, you know. It just says, "Crime Does Not Pay", you know. And the voice would tell you, eh, some event that took place and then the story would start to unfold. And some well-known actor would come in, you know.

VB: Right.

TM: And play the part of it. Pete Smith Specialties, that was wee comedy things. That was, eh, I remember one, it was, it was always the same fella that appeared in it, a fella by the name of Dave Smith [pause] he was not a well-known actor, but he was well known, because the minute people saw his face, they knew him. But they could not put a name to his face. And this is where they got to know him, through his Dave Smith, eh, Pete Smith Specialties. And, the one that I can remember was, eh, "Some people say that it's bad luck for a lady to walk on a 00:24:00gentleman's right arm", you see? And it was, she should always walk on the left, always walk on the inside, the gentleman should always be on the side where danger threatens from, you see. And this guy says, "Now," he says, "I'm going to--" he says, "--put this to the test" he says, "I'll let you see how wrong it can be." And he says, "Now here's our friend," and here's this boy, the fella come out, you know, with his girlfriend, and he puts her to the inside, you see, and he goes to the outside, and he's walking along, and of course there's fellas painting a roof up above, and one of them knocks over a can of paint, and it lands right on the girl's head [both laugh] and, who's to say she's lucky! You see? And then he sees another one, and he says, "Well, she's better moving on the outside this time," he says, "Just in case there's any more painters." So he puts her outside, you see, and then the whole thing starts all over again, and they're walking along and here there's a fella and he's got cement down, and he's cementing the pavement, you see, and the girl's walking along and just as she approaches this, he points to something and she looks across the street and 00:25:00she trips over something and goes face down into this cement [laughs] and this is the sort of thing it dwelled on, you know? It took place and it was so funny at the time, but that was one of the Pete Smith Specialties. And then there were the Three Stooges, they were regular. You've seen, you're bound to have seen them. The March of Time. We've already spoken about that. Our Gang, a gang of kids, all the, all the things that kids get up to. Spanky McFarland, Alfalfa Switzer, oh God, I cannot remember their names, but that was an ongoing series as well. It only, they only lasted for about ten or fifteen minutes. And Shooting Stars, that was a, a series of shorts that showed you the stars away from making films, I think the cameras were in their houses, and in their swimming pools and that. Hid behind bushes, and caught them off duty sort of thing. Caught them leaving the studios or arriving at the studios. Doing 00:26:00anything other than making films. It was just sort of, it was a sort of 'spot the stars' thing, see?

VB: Mhm.

TM: And you're sitting and saying, "Oh there's Errol Flynn" you know? Right away, you, you, he'd maybe dark glasses on, you know? And, and he was shying away from the camera, he didn't want to be seen. Because he's sort of, more or less off duty. But they managed to catch him. So that's what they called that series, it was Shooting Stars.

VB: Did you find out quite a bit about the stars from these, these films?

TM: Nah, no, they didn't tell you any secrets. You know, they just showed you them, they said, eh "Here's Bette Davis on her day off, playing tennis" you see? And they would show you a tennis court and you'd see two girls, you know, hitting a tennis ball. And then you'd see her turning around, you know? You'd recognise her right away. And she'd maybe just wave to you. And then it'd go away and show you somebody else. But it didn't tell you any secrets about them [paper rustling] now on the other side of this, I, I've got a friend in America, and we correspond back and forth. And this fella, he worked in a cinema as well. 00:27:00But he wasn't an operator, he was simply an usher. And he used to write and tell me about all the things that happened to him. In fact, I've got a paper there, I wonder if I should let you have it, let you have a read of it.

VB: Mhm.

TM: It was all about the cinemas and he went into the American Air Force, he was a bomber pilot during the war. But when he wrote me and told me about the cinemas, saying, his name is Vahl incidentally.

VB: [laughs] right.

TM: V-a-h-l, Vahl Vladyka, there's his name there, see. December 1991, he wrote this to me. He says [reading] "Of the above, I remember only one: Flash Gordon", this is the serials we were talking about [continues reading] "But I probably saw others at the Dixie Theatre in Holdenville, Oklahoma. The serials were shown in conjunction with Westerns which were shown on Fridays and Saturdays. Is there 00:28:00a book on the Serials? Speaking of books, I wish they would come out with 'Who is That, Volume II' so I could give it to you" [laughs] now this is some of the serials he's listed, see?

VB: Mhm.

TM: Queen of the North, Queen of the Northwoods with Walter Miller, 1929, made by Pathé; Darkest Africa, Clyde Beatty, 1936; Republic. And then there was Tarzan the Tiger, Frank Merril is that? 1929, Universal. The Lost Special, Frank Albertson, 1932; Tailspin Tommy, Maurice Murphy, '34; Flash Gordon, Buster Crabbe, '36; The Vanishing Legion, Harry Carey, 1931; The Galloping Ghost, H. "Red" George-Grange, or something like that; Lightning Warrior, Rin Tin Tin, 00:29:00that was a dog; [laughs] the last, the last of the-- The Last of the Mohicans.

VB: Ah.

TM: Harry Carey. The Devil's Horse, The Lost Jungle, Clyde Beatty; Burn 'Em Up Barnes, Adventures of Rex and Rusty [referring to Rex and Rinty (1935)], and Tarzan the Fearless, Buster Crabbe. So there's a list for you.

VB: Ah, that's really interesting. I mean, it's quite different from your list actually, isn't it?

TM: Aye, aye. See, I, that list that I made, is the ones that I could remember.

VB: Yes.

TM: And I wrote and I told Vahl, and he wrote back and he says, well here's are the ones that I can remember. [laughs]

VB: Right. It's really interesting.

TM: See if I can get that paper of his [rustling 10 seconds] [inaudible] I think 00:30:00that's it [rustling] he typewrites it all. [rustling 4 seconds]

VB: That's amazing.

TM: You can take that away with you, Val.

VB: That'd be really interesting, yes.

TM: And you can read it at your leisure. And eh if you could get it back to me.

VB: That would be great. I'll take good care of it. I mean that looks like erm it's really interesting. [Note: Vahl's letter and account have been photocopied for the collection]

TM: I think he's a frustrated author, you know.

VB: Yeah.

TM: He worked in the oil industry in America.

VB: Right.

TM: [rustling] And he's retired and eh I know he's got a bob or two, 'cause he's got his own plane, you see, he flies his own plane.

VB: I see.

TM: He's always saying to me, when are you coming out to Texas, 'cause he lives in Texas. Ah, I don't think I'll ever see Texas, I'll need to win the National 00:31:00Lottery or something.

VB: Yes, right [laughs] [pause 4 seconds] You were saying when you worked in the cinemas as well erm-- [rustling] I'll have a look at that.

TM: Have a look at it in your own time [rustling 7 seconds] wait until you see-- [TM preparing something 5 seconds] When I worked in the cinemas, I used to, if there was anything in the film that needed repaired, I used to cut it out, you know, take a wee bit, take a couple of frames.

[TM shows VB box of 35mm frames and they proceed to look over these for the remainder of the interview]

VB: [laughs] right! Ah, Mickey Mouse. Goodness me! So these are actually bits of-- pieces out of the films?TM: They're actually cuttings of film, yeah.

VB: Donald Duck.

TM: Aye, and if you look at the back there, you'll see the sprocket holes.

VB: I see.

TM: You see, I've just fitted it in.

VB: Right.

TM: To suit the frame of the film.

VB: Yeah, I see, now that you mention it. Yeah.

TM: And I've got a lot of bits of film there that I took, eh-- [coughs] [pause 3 seconds] that was just, eh, eh, I was a great one for, eh, taking sunsets and things like that, you know?

VB: Right.

TM: Things of beauty, I like nature.

VB: Yeah.

TM: And I used to cut out bits of film, yeah, you'll see some of the older stars in one or two of these.

VB: I wonder what that's from. It's almost like a bit of a western, or something.

TM: That is a western.

VB: Is it?

TM: That is a scene from Salome, Where She Danced.

VB: Right.

TM: With Rod Cameron and Yvonne De Carlo. That was a stagecoach, there's a stagecoach somewhere in there coming in between the trees. That was a scene from Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs.

VB: Oh wow! That's amazing!

TM: Put a slide on and you'll maybe see it better

[TM passes handheld slide projector for VB to view with; sounds of the slides being changed can be heard in the background now]

VB: It's amazing to see, when you think how fast that would pass before your eyes on the screen, that's amazing!

TM: Well, can I tell you, that's one frame, and twenty-four frames ran through the projector every second.

VB: Right.

TM: So that'll give you an idea of the speed that the film was going at-- [pause 8 seconds] that's just a clump of trees.

VB: Right.

TM: Wait till you get to the ones with the stars in them.

VB: They're beautiful photographs though, as well, I mean --

TM: That was just, again, a sunset scene, like I say, I always liked scenery. I always liked to see nature [pause 2 seconds] Ah, there was Deanna Durbin.

VB: Right [laughs]

TM: That was her first colour film, that was called Can't Help Singing. That's her standing there, she's singing to nature.

VB: Ah! I see.

TM: You see it?VB: Yes [pause] again, it's a beautiful shot, isn't it, they're all quite--

TM: I think that was filmed in Monument Valley or something.

VB: Right.

TM: That's Sugarloaf Mountain, in Rio.

VB: Which one's that from?

TM: Aw, I think that was just from a short. I think that was for one of these shorts that showed you the, the views of the particular country. That was from Untamed. That was a film with Ray Milland that he was a lumberjack in Canada.

VB: Right.

TM: And that was a view from it. And that was from the same film. I think because it was filmed in Canada and filmed in colour, they spent a lot of time, eh, on the actual scenery, I think, rather than the story, you know.

VB: Yes, I'm sure. That's beautiful isn't it, all the mountains with snow on. It's quite magnificent really.

TM: That was a scene from The Thief of Baghdad.

VB: Right.

TM: That was the genie flying over the mountains.

VB: Wow [pause] so this was sort of the genie--

TM: That was, that was the genie looking down on the land. That's just another sunset scene, that's an aeroplane, wait till we get to the film stars. Who's this? Flash Gordon!

VB: Ah!

TM: That's him. That's Buster Crabbe.

VB: Oh wow, yes-- [laughs] that's amazing [pause 6 seconds]

TM: You see the flash on his jersey?VB: Yeah, aha!

TM: He always wore that leather thing round his neck, you know, and his broad flash on the jersey but aw, he was a real hero, him. That, that was Doctor Zarkov that was with him. They got into all sorts of trouble. And Lana Turner in her early days. I think that was for Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

VB: Oh, right.

TM: She made Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde with Spencer Tracy.

VB: Yes [pause 3 seconds] It's so interesting to see this and think, you know, the size of the image on the screen and the size of the image there. It's quite--

TM: See if you recognize that gentleman.

VB: Oh, John Wayne [laughs] is, is that from Stagecoach?

TM: No, that's, that's from, what was that, In Old Oklahoma, I think.

VB: Right.

TM: That was. Aye.

VB: 'Cause he looks very young in it.

TM: Aye.

VB: It looks like quite an early one.

TM: Deanna Durbin again. That's a closer up view of her. She's being manhandled there by Robert Paige.

VB: Right.

TM: That was for that film Can't Help Singing.

VB: She is lovely actually.

TM: Well there's her on her own. That'll give you a better view of her.

VB: They're beautiful costumes as well.

TM: Yeah.

VB: In these films. That hat, the ringlets, lovely.

TM: I don't think you'll recognise them two. You're not old enough. That was Dennis Morgan and Ann Sheridan.

VB: Ah.

TM: That was for a film called Shine on Harvest Moon.

VB: Right. I've seen Ann Sheridan before actually.

TM: The, only the last part of it was in colour. It was a musical picture. And it was all in black and white, except the final, when they put on a show, you 00:38:00know? In the final sequence, they did that in colour.

VB: Right.

TM: That was a group of girls, they called them the Navy Blue Sextet, they appeared in quite a few, eh, musicals that Warner Brothers made at the time. They're singers, you know, just a group of singers.

VB: Right. That's-- were they supposed to be in the navy or something?

TM: Aye, in that picture they were in the navy. Aye.

VB: Right.

TM: That was a scene for Northwest Mounted Police, all the mounties lined up.

VB: Ah yes [pause 6 seconds] that's wonderful anyway.

TM: That was a scene for John Wayne's worst picture!

VB: Right!

TM: It was called 'old Shep' [referring to The Shepherd of the Hills?]. He was a shepherd with a sheepdog.

VB: Oh [both laugh]

TM: And it was terrible [laughs] I don't know whatever prompted them to make it. Ha! And these other slides these are not film clips, these are all locomotives, 00:39:00you wouldn't be interested in them.

VB: These are actually, fantastic, actually, I mean, these are ... I'd love to be able to get a copy of them, actually, at some time. Erm, I'm not really sure how one goes about copying slides.

TM: There is a way of doing it, but I don't know how it's done. Erm, I imagine it would be quite expensive.

VB: I bet it would.

TM: Eh, give me a minute. I think I've got clips up there [pause 13 seconds]

VB: Were these the same bits where the film was broken or something?

TM: Aye [rustling 6 seconds] you see, that's a bit of colour film. It shows you, 00:40:00it seems to be a boat. See it there?VB: Right.

TM: And there's another one at the centre, and it's coming closer to you, see, all the time. If you run that through the projector quickly, that boat's approaching you.

VB: Right.

TM: [rustling 7 seconds] That's a soundtrack down the side there.

VB: Right. Oh really?

TM: Mhm. [rustling]

VB: It looks like lines.

TM: Just looks like lines [rustling 8 seconds] now, you'll not be able to see these through the viewer, this is bits-- [pause] it's actually a cartoon.

VB: Ah, yes.

TM: A cat-- [pause] you see, there's a damaged bit of film.

VB: Right.

TM: That had to be cut out.

VB: Ah, I see, it's been [inaudible]

TM: See, it's ripped there. You see that's right at the end.

VB: Right.

TM: You see, it's at the end, you see, but after that you had "The End" and the cast, so even at that stage in the film, you see--

VB: Yeah.

TM: Ach, it was just--

[End of Side A]

[Start of Side B]

TM: Nelson Eddy.

VB: Nelson Eddy! Wow!

TM: And that was from that film the Phantom of the Opera.

VB: Right. Oh, he's a handsome man, isn't he!

TM: Veronica Lake.

VB: Right!

TM: See, at twenty-four frames a second, who would miss two!

VB: Yeah, absolutely. I can see exactly what you mean, yeah.

TM: I don't know who that is, you know, but it's a girl of some sorts.

VB: Yeah.

TM: I don't know her name [pause 4 seconds] That was Susanna Foster, she was 00:42:00another singer.

VB: Right [pause 8 seconds]

TM: That was a scene from Cobra Woman.

VB: [laughing] Cobra Woman!

TM: Aye.

VB: What was, well [laughs] I can g--

TM: Maria Montez.

VB: [laughing] I can guess what it was about!

TM: It was about a woman, she had her sister, you know, a twin sister, and one of them turned into a snake, see one was good and one was evil.

VB: Oh, right. Yeah.

TM: And the one that was evil could turn herself into a snake, into a cobra.

VB: Right.

TM: And do all sorts of wonderful things.

VB: It looks quite spectacular actually.

TM: [laughs] It was bloody rubbish! [both laugh] [pause] That was the 20th Century Fox trademark.

VB: Oh right, yeah [pause 4 seconds] Did that happen quite often, just films catching?

TM: Oh aye.

VB: Yeah.

TM: You see, in those days, that was made of nitrate, the film. That's highly inflammable, right, you see.

VB: Ah.

TM: I'm actually [inaudible] that would flare up. But nowadays, film is made of plastic.

VB: Yeah.

TM: It's much softer, it's not, it doesn't get as brittle as that. Eh, and it's practically un-burnable, you know?

VB: Yeah.

TM: This has highly cut down on the costs for the cinemas nowadays, for the types of film that they use.

VB: Yeah.

TM: [pause 4 seconds] I don't know who that is, but, there's another picture of Deanna Durbin.

VB: Oh yes. That's a lovely one as well actually [pause] the colour's very, eh, vivid in that, isn't it.

TM: Aye. It is, aye [pause] I used to string these together-- Movietone News.

VB: Ah! That's interesting as well. Did you, did you like the news yourself, 'cause I mean --

TM: The news was issued twice a week. There was two issues of newsreels come out and in this country, let me see, there was one, two, I think there was five companies made newsreels.

VB: Mhm.

TM: Eh, the most popular was Universal News, where that started with a ball turning.

VB: Right.

TM: You know? And a voice booming out saying [intonation] "Universal News brings you news from the Universe!" you see. And then music, and the centre of the world burst open, and you saw an aeroplane, and then a ship, and then a footballer, you know? Bits of action of this and that!

VB: Right.

TM: And then the news come on. The second most popular was the Pathé Gazette. That was with a cockerel standing up on top of a church, or a spire or something [makes cockerel noises]: "Woo woo Woodle Doo!" you know, and the guy said, "Here is the world's news in pictures, and this is Pathé Gazette screening it" and then the news started. And then there was the Gaumont British News, and that started with a fella holding a microphone in his hand.

VB: Right.

TM: And he, well he appeared to have a microphone, it might not have been a microphone. And he was ringing a bell and he would say [intonation] "This is the Gaumont British News bringing you the news from the World!" And that again was a ball, a world ball turning. And then there was Paramount News, that was the, the Mountain--

VB: Right, right.

TM: You know with the stars around about it.

VB: Right.

TM: And the voice would say, what was it he said for Paramount? Or they didn't say nothing, they just played music. But Movietone News, that was 20th Century Fox, and they played the 20th Century Fox fanfare through it.

VB: Right.

TM: And it was, eh, that Leslie Mitchell, he used to do the talk over on it. And he'd say, "This is Movietone, Leslie Mitchell reporting." Well, each cinema had their own newsreel, depending on who they fancied. You know, whichever one gave, offered them cheaper. But newsreels got issued twice a week, and you were right 00:46:00up to date with current events, you know?

VB: Right.

TM: See the likes of a football match played on Saturday? It would be showed in first run cinemas on the Monday. Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. And it would go into second run cinemas for Thursday, Friday and Saturday. And any events that had taken place over the weekend would be shown in first run cinemas Thursday, Friday and Saturday.

VB: Aye, I see.

TM: You see? So they were, they were right up to date with the newsreels.

VB: Yeah.

TM: But of course when the war finished, you know, and they started getting television, newsreels died a death then.

VB: Yeah.

TM: There was no need for them. These is all just wee bits, wee totty [small] clips. I used to have a wee projector, you see? And I joined a lot of them together, and ran them in strips. You see? Like that. There's a mountain scene, you see?

VB: I see, yes.

TM: And there's horses grazing in, out in the land. And there's a waggon train.

VB: Yeah.

TM: Going through the country. Well, you see, that was how you join film [clicking noises; TM demonstrates process]

VB: Ah, I see.

TM: What we used to do-- you see where the frame line is.

VB: Yeah.

TM: We used to cut it one hole beyond the frame.

VB: Mhm.

TM: And then wet it and scrape off the emulsion. And then you take a small brush, and brush it down with film cement. And then you'd take the next piece of film, join it up, so that you didn't interfere with the framing.

VB: Ah, I see.

TM: You still had a frame every four sprocket holes.

VB: Yeah.

TM: And as long as you did that, the film would run right for you.

VB: Right.

TM: What happened sometimes was, when the cement dried up and it was running through the projector, it would just come apart and that would cause a breakdown. That's when you'd to shut down everything and start pulling all the films out. That doesn't happen nowadays. Nowadays. We used to have to stand, we'd wet that cement, and we'd have to stand and hold it in our hand, like that, 00:48:00with the film carefully lined up, sprocket hole over sprocket hole, edge on edge, no ragged edges. And stand and hold it like that for two, three minutes. Until the cement dried and then wipe off the excess cement.

VB: Right.

TM: And then continue rolling the film. But nowadays, you put it into a machine. If the film breaks, you just put one half in the machine, that half on top, yeah, put the lid down, just stamp it.

VB: Right.

TM: And that film comes out joined together. But it very seldom happens nowadays.

[rustling; pause 6 seconds]

VB: Oh! Cowboys and Indians.

TM: Cowboys and Indians. That's Deanna Durbin again!

VB: Oh right, yes. What film was that from?

TM: That was Can't Help Singing. That was er, that was her, the one and only colour film she made. That's when she decided to give up film making. [pause 4 00:49:00seconds] If you want to take a few of them with you away, you can.

VB: That, that would be wonderful actually. If you don't mind because these must be, erm, I mean they're very unusual things erm --

TM: That's Pathé Gazette, that's the end of it. That's when the world started turning and they said, "Pathé Gazette" at the end, across the centre. [pause 3 seconds] Right, let's go and have something to eat, eh?

VB: That'd be lovely, yes. That would be great, 'cause then we could get a couple made into slides.

TM: We'll come back to that.

[Note: interview paused and re-started]

VB: You forget about them.

TM: You forget about them! Aye, oh, I know how it is [pause 5 seconds] there's a good picture of Deanna Durbin there!

VB: Oh, that's a lovely one.

TM: Aye, so you can take that.

VB: Do you know what film that's from?

TM: That's Can't Help Singing. That was the only colour film she ever made. All her pictures were in black and white. But eh they started, when colour started becoming more popular--

VB: Yeah.

TM: Eh, she made just the one colour picture and then she decided to call it a day.

VB: Right.

TM: She decided to retire.

VB: [pause 4 seconds] I think that was the person that we didn't know who she was.

TM: Aye, I don't know who that is. Aye.

VB: It's interesting to see the Movietone News and things as well.

TM: Aye, 'cause we, you, you don't have that now.

VB: No.

TM: [coughs] Dig in there. [TM hands over bag of film]

VB: Oh, right [laughs] I can see the films must have broken quite often actually.

TM: Well, you're talking about, this is years, you know, years of going through it.

VB: Aye.

TM: There's a bit of that Pathé Gazette. You can take that. 'Cause that's the end of it.

VB: What's that one? Pantry Pirates?

TM: Oh, that was the start of a cartoon.

VB: Right, aye.

TM: That was a Walt Disney cartoon.

VB: Right.

TM: Pantry Pirate. That was Pluto if I can remember rightly.

VB: Ah.

TM: And there's Deanna Durbin again.

VB: Oh that's another lovely one.

TM: You'll see I've got, I've got quite a lot of her.

VB: Yes [laughs] I'm not entirely convinced all these films broke actually. [both laugh]

TM: Ah well, to be quite honest with you, not all of them broke, you know!

VB: Do you know who this is? There's a couple.

TM: [pause] Nah, I don't know who it is. I don't even recall the film-- [pause 3 seconds] it's somebody kissing anyway, you know?

VB: Could be just about anyone, really, couldn't it?

TM: Aye.

VB: There's one here with someone sitting on a star, or a moon.

TM: That was Ann Sheridan.

VB: Oh right.

TM: Shine on Harvest Moon.

VB: Oh right.

TM: That was, that was the part before it became colour.

VB: Right, right.

TM: See there's ink or something been pasted over that, I think.

VB: That would be quite an interesting one.

TM: Aye, well, take that one. Mhm.

VB: Here's one with Bing Crosby and, it's almost like Edward G. Robinson. I'm not sure though.. [pause] who the other--

TM: I think that's Bob Hope.

VB: Is it Bob Hope? I couldn't--

TM: Aye.

VB: It's hard to see with the hat there.

TM: Aye, aye, it's Bing Crosby and Bob Hope.

VB: Ah, that's who it is. [laughs] I can't think what kind of film Bing Crosby would be in with Edward G. Robinson [VB looking through material 8 seconds] it's amazing. It, it's like looking through a film book or something.

TM: There's the 20th Century Fox trademark.

VB: Oh right. Oh, that would be an interesting one, one to have as well. Do you, do you know what film this is from?

TM: That was from one of the more modern films. I, I cannot remember the name of it but it was about films about girls, it was one of these science fiction things, you know, that they had a world of their own in the jungle, you know.

VB: Oh aye, right.

TM: And they captured a fella you know, uh.

VB: [laughs] Yeah.

TM: And he was unknown, you know, Man, strange being and all the rest of it, but how the hell did the girls get to be girls, if there was no men around. [both laugh] [pause 6 seconds] now there's an interesting sight. There's the RKO Radio Pictures trademark.

VB: Oh right.

TM: In colour, and they're not even in existence now-- [pause] they've gone out.

VB: That's an interesting one as well. It's like I, I, I don't know what image to use, sort of like an Aladdin's Cave, but it's not.

TM: Scottish Movietone News.

VB: Aw!

TM: Now there is a real piece of history. Because, when Movietone News was made it was usually British Movietone.

VB: Mhm, mhm.

TM: But they actually made a Scottish edition.

VB: Right.

TM: It became Scottish Movietone.

VB: Now that is interesting. Yeah.

TM: Aye. [rustling 14 seconds]

VB: Do you know who this is?

TM: Eh-- [pause] Marjorie Reynolds.

VB: Right. I don't know anything about her, who was she?

TM: She was never really a top grade star.

VB: Right.

TM: She's, I think she was a good standby.

VB: Right.

TM: You know, if eh the studios failed to get a big name, you know, she was a good standby.

VB: Right, I see.

TM: The one picture that she did make star billing in was, eh, Holiday Inn with Bing Crosby.

VB: Right.

TM: Did you ever see Holiday Inn?

VB: I didn't.

TM: That was the one where he sang 'White Christmas' for the first time.

VB: Oh, I have seen it, yes.

TM: Well, that, that was his leading lady.

VB: That was her.

TM: Aye, that was her.

VB: It's a lovely film, actually. [rustling 6 seconds]

TM: Now did I give you the start of the Paramount News there?

VB: I think you did.

TM: 'Cause there's the end of it.

VB: Oh right. Oh that would be a nice, that would be good actually.

TM: Brit, British Paramount News, so you got the start and the beginning.

VB: [reading] "The eyes and views of the world."

TM: Aye. [rustling 15 seconds]

VB: Here's a-- it looks like what you were saying.

TM: That was one of the things that I'd stuck together.

VB: Aye.

TM: You see what I did with it? I made a wee picture.

VB: Right.

TM: You see?VB: Yeah.

TM: I put on a trademark and then I put titles on it. See I've called it 'Shooting Stars number 5' and then I started putting bits of films all together. Now I used to have a wee projector and I used to show that to my brothers and sisters, and I'd take them into a dark room and let them see it all. You know? 00:56:00And I did the commentary myself.

VB: Yeah, I bet they loved that.

TM: That's before the days of television of course.

VB: Yeah.

TM: There's a thing that they used to have when they had trailers, when they showed a trailer, eh, even the trailer had to have a certificate from the board of censors.

VB: Oh right.

TM: And they always showed that sort of thing here [reads] "British Board of Film Censors"

VB: Right.

TM: "U Certificate for NSS trailer", that was National Screen Service trailer. [laughs]

VB: That's really interesting.

TM: They don't show trailers now-- well, they do, but they're not the same.

VB: No.

TM: [rustling 8 seconds] Good thing about these Val, is, you can get, if you know somebody that can mount them into slides.

VB: Yes.

TM: You don't need to get them printed or anything--

VB: Yes.

TM: You just cut them to size and get them mounted into slides.

VB: That, that would be a really good thing to do actually, 'cause I mean, maybe 00:57:00if I could get some of them made into slides--

TM: Course you can. You can have them. I mean they're only lying up there. You might as well have them if you can make use of them.

VB: That's really generous, I mean, 'cause--

TM: I mean if I die or anything of the sort, my wife will just burn them into the midden.

VB: Well, I mean, they'll certainly, they'll find a good home at the university, I can say. Erm I mean, after the project is finished--

TM: Well, help yourself to them. Take as much as you want.

VB: It'll go in the library and everything, so it'll be really-- they'll be well looked after as well. Well the public could come looking at them.

TM: That's right, well, aye. When I'm not here, they can help themselves and look at them.

VB: That's tremendously generous of you. Thanks, thanks very much for these. It's really tremendously useful. [rustling 7 seconds] I wonder if this is from-- I'm getting quite excited while looking at these as well. Is that from The 00:58:00Prisoner of Zenda? [pause] Or something like that?

TM: No, I think that was from a film called The Climax.

VB: Right.

TM: That's Nelson Eddy standing in the stairs.

VB: Ah, I see.

TM: And Susanna Foster coming down them.

VB: Right.

TM: It was a sort of, a sort of cheap make of The Phantom of the Opera.

VB: Right.

TM: You know, it was about, an opera story.

VB: Right.

TM: He was the hero and Susanna Foster, she was the singer in the opera, you know.

VB: Right.

TM: And there was a murderer tailing her, you know, and all the rest of it.

VB: Right.

TM: Trying to kill her and how they tracked him down.

VB: Right, I see.

TM: And The Climax was the name of the picture [rustling]

VB: 'Cause it looked, it looked a bit like Ronald Colman there, I didn't recognise it.

TM: There's a picture of Grumpy!

VB: [laughing] Aw! That's gorgeous! [both laugh] [pause 4 seconds] I like the 00:59:00ones from Snow White.

TM: In some of them, there's not much happening in them, you know? I think that's the genuine ones that's cut out for bad parts.

VB: Yeah, I think I've got one of them as well-- [laughs] a shot of Big Ben, I think.

TM: That was a wee experiment I tried, using a bit of film.

VB: Right.

TM: Some hypo water and some light, transferring it from film onto paper.

VB: Yeah.

TM: But it come out negative, you know-- [laughs] scratching my head. How can I get it to turn out positive? But I never managed it.

VB: Are you interested in still photography as well, or?

TM: No. I do, I do some still photography. I've got a lot of photographs there. In fact, I've got tins and tins there, but eh, I don't do any printing myself, no.

VB: Right.

TM: I did it in the days when it was just black and white, but I never got into 01:00:00trying it in colour [pause 3 seconds]

VB: Who's this here?

TM: Joan Bennett.

VB: Joan Bennett, right.

TM: That's that.

VB: Yeah.

TM: She was in that film The Green Hell.

VB: It's a lovely photograph that, actually.

TM: There was a piece of film from a western. Now that was Cinecolor.

VB: Ah.

TM: Now, you'll notice that it's a cheap form of, it was never as good as Technicolor, of course.

VB: Right.

TM: But when we showed that, all the colour out of it, one minute a tree was green and the next minute it was brown and the next minute it was yellow, you know, it wasn't a true colour, but you could take that for--

VB: That's, I mean it's very interesting.

TM: Aye, Cinecolor. [pause 3 seconds] Olivia de Havilland.

VB: Aw, that's lovely. She, she was beautiful, wasn't she, she really was.

TM: Aye.

VB: Was she one of your favourites or?

TM: Well no, not particularly. No. Eh, I did like her, she appeared in a lot of Errol Flynn's pictures, you know she was--

VB: Right.

TM: She was quite a common mate for him.

VB: Right enough, Robin Hood she was in, wasn't she.

TM: Ah. There's a scene of the Copacabana Beach in Brazil, in Rio!

VB: Ah wow!

TM: And there's Snow White herself!

VB: [laughing] Aw, that's lovely [pause 5 seconds]

TM: There's the prince, coming up the stairs.

VB: Right-- [pause 4 seconds] Who's this, "The neatest dish"?

TM: Eh, that was from a trailer, what was her name now? That was a picture she was in with Fred Astaire. Joan, Joan Leslie.

VB: Joan Leslie, right. That's a lovely one too.

TM: I remember that trailer, it said, "The neatest dish" and the next caption was, "Robert Benchley ever made a speech over".

VB: [laughs] Aw, right! [both laugh] [pause] Do you know who this is, with the big bunch of roses?

TM: That's Deanna Durbin.

VB: Aw, is it Deanna Durbin, I thought it might be her.

TM: That's one of her black-and-white films, aye.

VB: She looks a bit different with her--

TM: She's got a hat on there.

VB: Yeah. [pause 14 seconds]

TM: Margaret O'Brien.

VB: Oh!

TM: One frame of colour, the rest in black and white.

VB: Right, right.

TM: That was me again, messing about. I had colour paints that were transparent at the time.

VB: Right.

TM: And I tried it out on the film. They came out quite well. I projected that 01:03:00on the wall and it just looked like colour film. [pause] There's another film company that's gone defunct, 'International Pictures'.

VB: Oh right.

TM: [rustling 15 seconds] MGM's old trademark.

VB: Ah, the lion, of course!

TM: The lion. [pause 7 seconds] There's another bit of that Cinecolor, oh it looks different, the soundtrack's blue. [laughs]

VB: Right. Who's that in that?

TM: I think that's Raymond Hatton. One of the old western stars.

VB: Right.

TM: I don't know who the lady is, but the old boy with the beard, I'm sure it's Raymond Hatton. [pause] Goofy.

VB: Aw right [laughs]

TM: Playing a guitar!

VB: I just seen this film quite recently, I'm just trying to think what it was.

TM: That's S.K. Sakall [referring to S.Z. Sakall], you know the big fat man?

VB: Yes.

TM: And I think, that was one of the pictures he was in with Danny Kaye.

VB: That's it!

TM: Aye.

VB: It was Danny Kaye.

TM: Aye.

VB: It's the one where he's got a twin brother.

TM: That's right, aye.

VB: He's eh--

TM: What was the name of it, eh, The Kid from Brooklyn? [referring to Wonder Man, 1945]

VB: Something like that, yeah.

TM: Aye, aye, I'm sure that was it.

VB: That's right. It's strange, 'cause I had seen it very recently-- [pause] he was good as well. He's one of these people that you see in quite a few films, isn't he?

TM: Yeah.

VB: Kind of erm -- [rustling 9 seconds]

TM: That was all war footage, you see?VB: Oh right.

TM: Aeroplanes-- [pause] Tanks-- [rustling 4 seconds] That's Hitler.

VB: Yeah.

TM: That was scenes from a John Wayne movie, see that? And that? And that? The Fighting Seabees, I interspersed these. [laughs]

VB: That must look really good actually, shown.

TM: That's just a blank piece of film.

VB: Can I ask who this is, as well? This.

TM: That girl's name's Barbara Britton.

VB: Barbara Britton, yeah.

TM: Again, she was never--

VB: Not a--

TM: Not a top class actress, you know, she was in some pictures, you know, but she never came to much.

VB: Yeah [pause 10 seconds]

TM: Oh, there's a good one.

VB: Oh, Universal News.

TM: "Universal News brings you news from the universe." And then the centre of the world opened up.

VB: Right.

TM: And then you saw a plane and it changed to a ship, and then a footballer kicking a ball, and then horses going over the jumps and then somebody on a ski board, you know, and then the news started. That was, that was the beginning of it, Universal News.

VB: That's an interesting one as well. [pause 5 seconds]

TM: There's the opera house that they filmed Phantom of the Opera in.

VB: Oh right, that's right, 'cause we saw the film of that erm-- [pause 2 seconds] Very grand that. [pause 2 seconds] An American Romance? Is that a 01:07:00western? It looks like a western from the title there.

TM: No, I don't think it was a western.

VB: Ah.

TM: I think that was the story of somebody that became famous in America but I can't mind who it was. [coughs] That was the title sequence. [coughs]

VB: Right, 'cause there's another one here with, with the cast. I don't know if it's part of this film, no, it's a film with Nelson Eddy and Claude Rains and --

TM: [reads] "Nelson Eddy, Susanna Foster, Claude Rains, Donald Woods" - that's the Phantom of the Opera.

VB: Right.

TM: That's the cast of the Phantom of the Opera.

VB: I'm amazed at how well you remember these films actually, considering--

TM: [laughs] Ah well.

VB: The time that's passed-- [pause 2 seconds] I suppose some of them, if you've seen them a few times, some of them.

TM: Oh well, I saw them at least six or seven times. Up in Arms, that was a 01:08:00Danny Kaye movie.

VB: Oh right.

TM: There's the title sequence for that.

VB: Oh right, yeah.

TM: That was from the trailer actually.

VB: Here's another one that's got me baffled.

TM: [pause] Dorothy Lamour and Bing Crosby from Dixie.

VB: Oh right.

TM: That was the first film they made together, it wasn't a road picture.

VB: Right.

TM: It was a musical. [pause 16 seconds] There's a scene of Walt Disney and models of the seven dwarfs.

VB: Oh.

TM: That was from the trailer.

VB: Right.

TM: When they were advertising it, they had him telling people just exactly how 01:09:00the seven dwarfs came to life on the screen. He had models made.

VB: Right.

TM: And then the drawings was taken from the models.

VB: Well, that's interesting to know. [pause 22 seconds] There's so many of these! It's like a treasure trove or something.

TM: Now there's Abbott and Costello, and there's Deanna Durbin.

VB: Ah.

TM: Randolph Scott, Grace McDonald, Noah Beery Jr., Jane Frazee, Turhan Bay. I think that's George Sanders, Ginger Rogers, I don't know who that is, I don't 01:10:00know who that is, that's Ann Sheridan, George Raft, Edward G. Robinson, [VB laughs] Linda Darnell, Margaret Chapman. And that girl, that's Dagwood Bumstead's wife, what was her name? Blondie, I can't remember her real name.

VB: Oh right.

TM: You can take all them. They're all famous stars!

VB: Aw that's like, it is like a catalogue of stars or something!

TM: Aye! [laughs]

VB: That's wonderful.

TM: Joan Crawford, James Craig, Marsha Hunt, Ginny Simms, Margaret O'Brien, Donald O'Connor. [pause 2 seconds] Take them as well.

VB: Thanks. I mean this really is very generous of you.

TM: Well, like I say, they'd only be lying up there going to rack and ruin you know? [pause] that's just a piece of space with blank film.

VB: Here's one with the "Arcadia presents".

TM: That was from their trailer of eh coming attractions.

VB: Right.

TM: You see, they, they had a whole strip of that, and whenever you were going to show the coming attractions, you always made it your own theatre.

VB: Right.

TM: So, "The Arcadia presents".

VB: Personalising it.

TM: Aye, "Next week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday", and then you'd show the trailer. They'd wee bits of film. Now that would maybe be about so long, it would run for maybe a couple of seconds on the screen, but that's all you needed. Well, we used to put that first, you see. And then they'd get a piece of film that said, "Coming Attractions" and I'd hit on to it, right, for so long, and then the next bit, "Next week, Monday, Tuesday, and Wednesday", cut that and 01:12:00add that one.

VB: Right.

TM: And then you'd put the trailer on, and then you would add a wee bit in between that just simply says, "Also" and you add that on, and then you put the second trailer, and then the last one would be, "Also full supporting programme" and that would mean everything else--

VB: Yeah.

TM: That was taking place at the time. And that was your trailer made up. And then when you run it through on the screen you saw, "The Arcadia presents, Coming Attractions, next week, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday", bang, the trailer. And then when the trailer finished, it run a couple of minutes, "Also".

VB: Right.

TM: The second trailer for the second feature, bang, bang, bang, bang, all the action, and then "Also, full supporting programme" End of trailers. That, that was how it was done.

[End of Interview]